Re: Wrongful Death Lawsuit- discuss here

[waitaminute]

yes, I noticed that about 'passing' the polygraph too. how convenient.

[Admin]

Thank you, Lash, for finding the search warrant about the text message! You have an encyclopedic knowledge of the case!

The polygraph info in 437 is especially interesting, because it shows how police can use deception in interrogation situations, and it’s perfectly legal.

There is a reason, of course, as to why polygraphs are not admissible in courts as evidence. And that’s because they are really “pseudoscience”—there is no agreed upon method to build and calibrate these machines, no standards for how they are administered to subjects, training and interpretation by operators, etc. The machines rely on “typical” skin impedence responses to “lies” and “truths”, and also rely quite a bit on the subject’s perception of how useful and accurate they are (the intimidation factor). The interpretation is also affected by the subjective opinions of the operator, as we see with AS’s poly—the results were “inconclusive”, yet the operator, Paul Redden, “felt” that Adam was being truthful.

So having said that, one must also take into account different types of personalities, and different intellectual conditions, when determining how accurate or useful polygraphs are (or are not). What if a subject is not "typical"?

If, for example, the subject is on the autism spectrum, how would those results be validated? How does medication taken affect the subject’s responses, and the interpretation by the operator? Blood levels of medications are not measured before the test is done, so any report of meds taken relies on a subject report, with no ability to factor in objective blood levels, metabolism, and underlying medical conditions.

I mention all this because now we know for certain that AS was, and perhaps still is, under the care of a psychiatrist. We know that he took at least one psychoactive medication, Ambien, close in time to the test, that could substantially alter his response. I’ve long thought AS’s interpersonal reactions could be indications that he is on the autism spectrum. (In addition to factoring in both Jonah and Dina's deep interest in autism nonprofits and autism therapy organizations.) Knowing that Adam is under the care of a psychiatrist, and that very few psychiatrists do “talk therapy”, there is an even higher probability AS was taking additional psychoactive medications, IMO.

All of which means that the “inconclusive” result of polygrapher Paul Redden is now even MORE inconclusive than it was 5 years ago, IMO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph#National_Academy_of_Sciences

The accuracy of the polygraph has been contested almost since the introduction of the device. In 2003, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) issued a report entitled "The Polygraph and Lie Detection". The NAS found that the majority of polygraph research was "unreliable, unscientific and biased", concluding that 57 of the approximately 80 research studies that the American Polygraph Association relies on to come to their conclusions were significantly flawed.[30]

When polygraphs are used as a screening tool (in national security matters and for law enforcement agencies for example) the level of accuracy drops to such a level that "Its accuracy in distinguishing actual or potential security violators from innocent test takers is insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee security screening in federal agencies." The NAS concluded that the polygraph "...may have some utility"[14] but that there is "little basis for the expectation that a polygraph test could have extremely high accuracy."[14]:212

The NAS conclusions paralleled those of the earlier United States Congress Office of Technology Assessment report "Scientific Validity of Polygraph Testing: A Research Review and Evaluation".[31] Similarly, a report to Congress by the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy[32] on national security concluded that " The few Government-sponsored scientific research reports on polygraph validity (as opposed to its utility), especially those focusing on the screening of applicants for employment, indicate that the polygraph is neither scientifically valid nor especially effective beyond its ability to generate admissions..".

Law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies in the United States are by far the biggest users of polygraph technology. In the United States alone most federal law enforcement agencies either employ their own polygraph examiners or use the services of examiners employed in other agencies.[37] In 1978 Richard Helms, the 8th Director of Central Intelligence, stated that:

"We discovered there were some Eastern Europeans who could defeat the polygraph at any time. Americans are not very good at it, because we are raised to tell the truth and when we lie it is easy to tell we are lying. But we find a lot of Europeans and Asiatics can handle that polygraph without a blip, and you know they are lying and you have evidence that they are lying."[38]

Susan McCarthy of Salon said in 2000 that "The polygraph is an American phenomenon, with limited use in a few countries, such as Canada, Israel and Japan"[39]

[Lash]

You're welcome no problem!

Sorry I forgot to give an answer for when we first learned about Adam and the Ambien. It was AR's book, copyright 2012. Which was initially a discussion between Adam and Redden. Redden an experienced polygrapher, imo, most definitely had knowledge of medication and how it could affect the polygraph results.

“Did you see Rebecca again last night?” Redden asked. “After you went to your room in the guesthouse?”

“No. I didn’t see her or talk to her. I went to the guesthouse, drank a Diet 7Up, and called my girlfriend.”

Adam said he’d taken an Ambien sleeping pill and gone to bed. He recalled getting up during the night to go to the bathroom, and falling back to sleep until a quarter after six in the morning.

Evincing no embarrassment, he said he’d begun his day by pulling up a porn site on his iPhone.

“I wanted some breakfast,” he told Redden, “and I showered and got dressed. I was going to go to the main residence and ask Rebecca if she wanted to go out to breakfast with me.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.”

Then -- the media in May 2013 released Adam's poly. Where we first see/hear Adam's odd behavior. Yeah, I will say AS was in a high stress situation, but still odd imo. We were also privy to a comment Redden made to Adam after the poly was complete. Imo, an unprofessional comment. I believe the poly began around 7:30 PM, less than 24 hours since having taken the Ambien. I don't know the life span of Ambien in the body, but do we know what kind of Ambien he took? There is a controlled release type of Ambien on the market.

After two hours of questioning, the lie detector exam ended.  According to Redden, the results were inconclusive.

Redden: You could have done a whole lot worse on the test. You could have done a whole lot better, too. Based on what we've got, we're in the inconclusive range. But, it really doesn't bother me that much… As far as being involved in it, I'm not inclined to believe that… You're definitely not flunking my test.

Video at link-
http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai?clienttype=generic

[Imp]

Hi everyone ~ so glad to find you!  I've got a lot of reading to do!

[justice be served]

Thank you all for the invite! This is a breath of fresh air and I commend the tireless efforts of all. I promise to get caught up and be a productive member!

[Admin]

Welcome to all the "new" old members!

No thanks button here, but we'll make do. (Just whisper a "thanks" to your screen when a post moves you. We'll hear it!)

[coastal]

Coastal checking in! Thank you for having us!

[inthedark14]

In the ROA document 437 the interview of NN with the detectives NN states that his step mother worked for JS. Did we know this previously? I don't know if it matters but it seems like another weird connection in this very weird case. (pgs 87-88 ROA 437)

[Admin]

This is a little off topic, but I didn't think it merited its own thread, and thought members might find it interesting.

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Sep 21, 2016, 06:00 ET
     
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BBM.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/skinbetter-science-debuts-nationwide-300331565.html

September 26, 2016

New to the clinical skin care market is skinbetter science, a company started by Restylane pioneer Jonah Shacknai.

"We are committed to developing and bringing to market cutting-edge skin care products with unsurpassed effectiv­eness, safety and elegance and a luxury consumer experience, available exclusively through our authorized physician partners," stated Shacknai.

http://www.skininc.com/spabusiness/leaders/suppliers/Skinbetter-Science-Debuts-in-Clinical-Skin-Care-394820711.html

[Admin]

In the ROA document 437 the interview of NN with the detectives NN states that his step mother worked for JS.  Did we know this previously?  I don't know if it matters but it seems like another weird connection in this very weird case.  (pgs 87-88 ROA 437)

Yes, inthedark14, I think that is the first we have ever heard about that. I'd be interested to know in what capacity NN's stepmother worked for JS-- was it in one of his professional companies? Or in a domestic help capacity? etc. Did NN ever meet JS, before JS and RZ were together?

It is an odd connection.

So much new information in #437. Sad to read about RZ's miscarriage.

I definitely think the 2 interviewers had an "agenda" as it related to convincing NN that RZ committed suicide. It was like they had already made up their minds, and were actively tag teaming to convince NN, rather than interviewing NN to see what his knowledge and opinions on suicide were. It's disturbing.

[inthedark14]

In the ROA document 437 the interview of NN with the detectives NN states that his step mother worked for JS.  Did we know this previously?  I don't know if it matters but it seems like another weird connection in this very weird case.  (pgs 87-88 ROA 437)

Yes, inthedark14, I think that is the first we have ever heard about that. I'd be interested to know in what capacity NN's stepmother worked for JS-- was it in one of his professional companies? Or in a domestic help capacity? etc. Did NN ever meet JS, before JS and RZ were together?

It is an odd connection.

So much new information in #437. Sad to read about RZ's miscarriage.

I definitely think the 2 interviewers had an "agenda" as it related to convincing NN that RZ committed suicide. It was like they had already made up their minds, and were actively tag teaming to convince NN, rather than interviewing NN to see what his knowledge and opinions on suicide were. It's disturbing.

BBM above. I wholeheartedly agree with you! It's so strange and odd that only 5 days after RZ's death, these two detectives were pushing the suicide theory so hard. SDSO stated quite often that they had not come to a conclusion regarding the case and that they were investigating, their "conclusion" came WEEKS later at the Labor Day press conference. It appears that even 5 days after her death, the suicide decision was made. I wonder if we will get to see the transcripts of the interviews with RZ's family members. Did they receive the same nudges from LE regarding what happened to RZ? I don't know a lot about police interviewing strategies, but it really, really, strikes me as odd the commentary of the detectives regarding suicide. Especially the detective giving personal examples of what had happened with his ex wife.

In the past, there have been nasty comments thrown around that MZL had "decided" that RZ hadn't committed suicide well prior to the Labor Day announcement by SDSO. It would seem, IMO, that if the detectives working RZ's case had given her the same impression that is given in NN's interview she would have come to the conclusion that SDSO had decided RZ's death was a suicide at that point, regardless of what SDSO's PR was pandering to the public.

ALWAYS MOO

[Admin]

Thank you, inthedark, for reminding all of us that NN's interview was ONLY 5 days after RZ's death. I knew it was well before the labor day press conference, but I had forgotten, or not noticed, that it was only 5 days after her death.

And I agree that the personal details the officers discussed, about his ex wife's suicide attempt, are strange. I almost wonder if he made the whole story up? It's just almost "too convenient" of a story, and officers ARE allowed to lie during interrogations. Like "Hey buddy, my ex-wife tried suicide, too, just like yours, 'cept your ex wife succeeded."

It's possible they were trying to "trick" NN with the suicide idea, to see what his reaction was (if they thought he could be her murderer.) As in, trying to see if NN was "relieved" that they were not looking at murder, or seeing if he would take the "suicide bait" and offer some details.

Once the officers went down the "suicide" discussion with NN, it seems there was no further consideration in the officers comments given to whether she was, in fact, a murder victim. Suicide seemed to be their foregone conclusion they wanted to end the interview with, IMO. And if this is how MZL's interview went, I can certainly see why she was so angry!

The transcripts I'd REALLY like to read are Dina, Nina, and Jonah's initial interviews. Those would be very eye opening as to everyone's state of mind in the first hours and days. Maybe the Zahau attorney will have a reason to attach their transcripts to a motion, so they'd be available to the public. Wouldn't that be nice, after 5+ years?

Maybe those would be available with an FOIA request, after the civil case is concluded? I'll ask in the attorney thread at the other discussion site.

[Admin]

In the ROA document 437 the interview of NN with the detectives NN states that his step mother worked for JS.  Did we know this previously?  I don't know if it matters but it seems like another weird connection in this very weird case.  (pgs 87-88 ROA 437)

Was reading #437 again, and found this. Interviewers are asking NN about his family's level of wealth, and references them living in Scottsdale. NN denies they were "rich", and says his father is a sewage treatment worker.

Page 153/ 175, Line 7:

"I think the best job my stepmother had was working for medicis."

NN doesn't elaborate as to what her job was. He seems to concede his stepmother has some wealth, but that he wasn't a recipient of that.

"I mean, my family was, I was raised by my mom, and dad, like up, I never considered that I'd come from that, that any part of money there is from my step mother, which, family. So... but what was the question?"

Just thinking out loud, but could be that the step mother's "wealth" indicates she socialized in circles that put her close to JS, and that opened the door for some kind of job for her within Medicis. From the way NN describes it, I don't get the sense that the job was a career, or that she was a professional, so perhaps a low level position within Medicis. Articles from that time indicate 319 people lost jobs at Medicis with the Valeant buy out in 2012, and 117 were selected to stay on. I wonder if the step mother was one that lost her job in the buy out? This also means that NN likely knew who JS was when RZ began dating him. It's an interesting coincidence in the story of Rebecca and Jonah's relationship, but I'm not sure what, if any significance it has in the circumstances of her death.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2012/12/how-many-medicis-employees-lost-their.html

[Lash]

More insight. Supporters from other side have have tried to discredit the witness who claims to have seen Dina Shacknai at the mansion that night. Just a few things I can remember being spewed over the past years. They have alleged the witness never went to the police and only reached out to Bremner for publicity. Doc 437 proves this wrong. The witness reported directly to DOJ Special Agent A. Quick what they saw that night.

Doc 437- page 45

[Lash]

More insight. Several details reported to Det. Tsuida by C Niles on August 1st, 2011. In my opinion, the most interesting, the table was already broken.

-Rebecca called CN on the 11th. RZ asked for referrals to help watch Ocean for a few days.

-CN reported talking to RZ about an altercation with Dina at Max's school where Dina lunged at RZ.

-CN added the table in the yard with the broken leg had been in that condition for a very long time.

Doc 437 page 50

[Betty P]

Heads up!  LL is posting #437 document text over on WS, putting her own special spin on the information.

[Imp]

I'm inclined to simply ignore Dina, er, I mean LL, and let WS deal with her.

[Lash]

I agree Imp.

I posted some of the details from doc 437 that were not shared. I have no intention to respond to any of the follow up questions. Readers can decide for themselves after seeing some of the new details.

[Imp]

Hi Lash

I'd love to keep arguing with her, but I'm weary of seeing the threads get locked over there. I guess if they want to allow her to spend all day bashing RZ unchallenged, it's their prerogative.

[Imp]

LOL - I'm reading over there. Looks like LL has moved on from the stupid Shibari thing to witchcraft rope tying. Dina, er, I mean, LL, sure has a thing for ropes, doesn't she? Plus her statement of undisputed "fact" that "The [witchcraft] book was Rebecca's, and she certainly used it to learn to tie herself up."

[Admin]

I'm thinking we will see some new stuff on the ROA later this week-- the ex-parte is Thursday morning, and the discovery hearing/ protective order hearing is Friday afternoon. Amazingly, in the past there has been something new up on the ROA by close of business on Fridays when there is a hearing (appears to be the Judge's regular hearing day). I hope NN gets his order of protection or the subpoena quashed. They have quite enough from him already, considering he was in Arizona when RZ died.

I can't see how further harassing NN, the ex-husband, will somehow "prove" that none of the 3 defendants are responsible for Rebecca's death, or even uncover any new info that might lead to proving they are not responsible.

It's like when DS tried to depose Howard Luber's wife, for pete's sake! And she never left AZ either. The wife's attorney got that subpoena quashed pretty quickly, but the issues with NN have inexplicably lingered for 9 ridiculous months. He's a bit of an odd duck, IMO, but he wasn't anywhere in the state of California, and clearly he didn't kill her. I hope the judge rules in his favor.

[Imp]

It seems to me much of this "legal" activity generated on Dina's behalf is simply an operation to dig up dirt on RZ. It's single-minded and quite frankly deranged, if you ask me. It's clearly not doing anything to help her defense, as it has nothing to do with where she was, or what she was doing the night RZ was murdered. All it "helps" is to fuel Dina's deranged jealousy and hatred, even to this day, of Rebecca.

[Admin]

I had a moment of clarity when I read 437 again, the section with bits of XZ's depo, where XZ's was being questioned about where she lives, why she lives there, and her immigration status. (A particularly vile line of questioning for a minor, which the Zahau attorney put a stop to.)

Now that I read this again, I think DS was going after XZ's "immigration" status a few months back, with the filings, accusations, and international letter rogatory. (Originally I had thought DS was attacking Pari or Robert's status,  to challenge their right to bring the case, or trying to frame NN and RZ for a "sham" marriage.)

Anyway, that (useless) letter rogatory, and line of questioning, was a particularly vicious legal harassment, of a minor, which has exactly nothing to do with DS defending herself from allegations that she murdered RZ. I still think it's probable DS is subject to a child order of protection (renewed) regarding XZ, so if I'm right, the only way she can "attack" and harass XZ now is thru court filings.

XZ, like the other innocent people DS has attacked and harassed in this case, was not even in California when Rebecca died. How does attacking any of the Zahau's immigration status prove DS is not responsible for Rebecca's death? It truly boggles the mind.

[Admin]

It seems to me much of this "legal" activity generated on Dina's behalf is simply an operation to dig up dirt on RZ. It's single-minded and quite frankly deranged, if you ask me. It's clearly not doing anything to help her defense, as it has nothing to do with where she was, or what she was doing the night RZ was murdered. All it "helps" is to fuel Dina's deranged jealousy and hatred, even to this day, of Rebecca.

I think it's a distraction technique, to muddy the waters as much as possible, and deflect attention from her.

DS is covered (for her **$10 million plus divorce winnings from Jonah) by an umbrella policy from Chubb and Sons (according to her own reporting on this case filings), so they are paying for her defense. No reason not to dig up dirt on everyone else to deflect attention, and create delays in the case progress.

Divorce appeal is public-- see page 10:

**http://law.justia.com/cases/arizona/court-of-appeals-division-one-unpublished/2015/1-ca-cv-13-0555.html

But yeah, I agree that she's got a really, really pathologically deranged jealousy and hatred toward RZ to this day. It's very disturbing, to see this sustained level of obsessive hatred and jealousy by DS, over 5 years time, toward a woman dead in her grave. Yikes. That is clinically pathological, IMO.

And lawsuits seem to be a lifestyle for DS. IMO!

[Lash]

Good day everyone  

I have also been re-reading the depo's of Mary and XZ. I have to agree with KZ, regarding XZ's immigration status. Imo, it is clear from XZ's deposition this is where Dina's attorneys were headed with the letter of rogatory. XZ's immigrantion status has nothing to do with Dina's defense in this WDS. Again, XZ was not in California at the time of Rebecca's death. If there had been something there, was Dina planning to use it as blackmail? XZ is a minor, not even a named a plaintiff in the WDS. What else could Dina have used this information for?

It is obvious Dina is still using the depo's from this WDS to seek answers regarding Max's death. XZ was questioned about the 911 call, what time she woke up, what gym JS went to, where the scooter was seen, conversations with RZ, GS, ES and much more. Many of the questions are completely irrelevant to Dina's defense position, that RZ committed suicide. Could Dina be changing her defense strategy? Some of the questions could be seen as relevant if Dina has decided to go with murder and allege it was AS and JS. Dina's defense argument could be JS and AS were upset with Rebecca over Max's accident and killed her. Some of the questions asked of XZ would become relevant. Maybe the reason why Zahau attorney Greer could not object to this line of questioning?

I also noticed some of the depo's are missing pages. It proves Dina's attorneys were fully aware of what they included in this motion to compel Neil. They were very selective. They released salacious details that have absolutely nothing to do with Neil. Example, the alleged argument over calling GS fat was a depo question for Mary not Neil. The suicide comment about GS was from Snow not Neil. I agree with another poster, these were a FU. Likely meant for Jonah. It sickens me Dina would use Jonah's older siblings as a tactic. Children she once cared for. It has me bewildered. I thought her charity organization was about protecting children in blended families? It has me questioning where Dina's defense strategy is headed.

JMO

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